The Marketing-to-Product Manager Pivot: Building Digital Products That Scale - Ep. 86

The Marketing-to-Product Manager Pivot: Building Digital Products That Scale - Ep. 86.

Join Erica and Alex as they reunite with former colleague Eszter Somogyi-Vass, who made the successful transition from marketing to product management at Profession.hu, Hungary's leading job board.

What You'll Learn:

• How marketing skills translate perfectly to product management
• The key differences between B2B and B2C product teams
• Why product and marketing must share the same KPIs to avoid silos
• How to manage change in mature digital products (22+ years old!)
• The importance of user behaviour segments vs traditional personas
• Strategies for delighting customers, not just satisfying them

Key Insights:

• Product management is like marketing but focused on different parts of the funnel
• Both roles require understanding what's good for customers AND the business
• Mature products face unique challenges compared to startup agility
• Successful collaboration requires shared goals and constant communication

About Eszter: Product Lead at Profession.hu, Hungary's top job board connecting thousands of job seekers with career opportunities daily. Previously worked in marketing for seven years before making the successful pivot to product management. Connect with Eszter here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vass-eszter/

Chapters

0:00 - Reunion after seven years 

1:32 - What does a product manager actually do? 

4:33 - Breaking down Profession.hu's product teams 

7:55 - How product and marketing collaborate 

12:00 - Go-to-market strategies in product teams 

15:25 - When to split marketing and product functions 

22:06 - Avoiding silos between teams 

24:28 - User behaviour segments vs personas 

27:39 - Focus: Job seekers or employers? 

31:10 - Biggest challenges in digital products 

35:26 - Managing change with established users 

40:18 - Key takeaways and advice

Connect with the hosts:
Erica: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erica-mackay/
Alex: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-bilney/

Get in touch with us at The Marketing Detective Agency - www.themarketingdetectiveagency.com

#MarketingStrategy #BusinessMarketing #TargetAudience #MarketingTips #OfficePolititcs #MarketingPodcast

Transcript

0:00

This is the Giraffes Don't Eat Steak Podcast, a show that brings you marketing stories, tips, hints, and much more. A treat for those who want to succeed in business or marketers who just want to. Hello, Alex. Hey, Erica. How are you doing? I am good. I'm good. And so excited, you won't believe it. We have Esther with us today. Hey. Hey. Hello, guys. So. So for our listeners, the three of us worked together. Feels like such a long time ago now. It was a long time ago. Creating the most amazing marketing campaigns for Hungary. So that's how we met Esther. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I was thinking about it today. It was actually seven years ago. Seven years. Yeah, seven years. Crazy. So I thought I'd surprise you, Alex. I mean, seven years is a long time ago. So when you said you think it's a long time ago, it really is. Seven years is not. Is not a short time. I don't know where those seven years have gone. That's absolutely mad. I've lost hair in those seven years. Oh, yeah, I can see that. Oh, isn't it so wonderful to have you here? Thank you for having me. So you. We all were doing marketing together, but you have now left the world of marketing and joined product. Tell us about what you're doing now. Yeah, sure. So, hi, everyone. I'm Esther. I'm the product lead at Profession Hu, which is Hungary's top job board. And yeah, I do come from a marketing background, but now what I do is like I shape the, you know, shape digital products that our customers use, our users use the job seekers. We also have a team that works on the employer side. So what we do now is that we connect thousands and thousands of people, you know, with better career opportunities and better jobs every day. And so basically my job is now all about making the job run smarter, smoother, and, you know, just a bit more human. Because, you know, we all know that this process is quite stressful for everyone. So anyone, anything that we can do to make it better is what we do. And I know we probably might come up that what does a product manager actually do? And what do we do? What does a digital product manager do? Because it's very interesting in the sense that I wasn't specifically going into product management once I left our previous gig together, but a lot of stuff that product managers do overlap with marketing. And I can talk about that a bit in more detail, but basically what product managers do essentially is always looking for the sweet spots of what's good for the customer or the users what's good for the business and what's technologically feasible. So basically the first two part of this is similar for marketing as well. You're always looking what's best for the customer, but what's good for the business and how you can achieve that. So what comes in third in this role is like because we are working on digital products is like what is technologically feasible and viable. So yeah, that's what basically what we do. Cool. So I guess like yeah, going into product it wasn't. It's not like a quantum leap in terms of skill set and what you need to learn. Customer's always been the central point. So in terms of. Because obviously do you within the realm of what's it called? So the company is called profession. Profession issue. Yeah, yeah, profession. They essentially have one big product and that's the less the job search. But as a product product manager in that do you have sort of micro products within the larger product or how does that. Yeah, very good question. And definitely just to confirm that like for moving from marketing to product management, it wasn't like a leap, it's more like a pivot. So it's like the same chord but like a different position I would say. But yeah. So at profession we are like I think 20 product managers working right now. And yeah, the big product is the job board and the listing and how we, you know, display that and how job seekers can apply, etc. Etc. But we have exactly like you said, parts of the product. So we call it components of the product. And every product manager is responsible for one, two or several components of the product. And basically for us, and I think it's similar in a lot of digital products there are two or three big groups. So for us it's like three big groups of product teams. One is the B2C. So the job seeker side, that's what I lead. And we have B2B which is the employer side because we also have digital products and interfaces for employers, stuff like that like applicant tracking systems, CV databases and the whole advertisement. How do I say it in English where they can post. So the whole post flow. So posting of the job, the whole flow, we call it the ecom flow because it's like a self serving flow. But so we have the B2B team as well and we have a newbies product team and they are mostly working on relatively very new and up from the ground products. So not the business as usual, not the legacy stuff, but very new products. So for example, what they've developed in the Past, I think two years now, it's been live. We have a premium subscription for the job seekers as well, which is very, very rare for job boards. LinkedIn does it, but LinkedIn is not a job board. They are a social network. So, yeah, that's what they're working on. So B2C, B2B and new business. And in each team, we have like four or five product managers and everyone is responsible for a part of the. But of course, in order to not to get, you know, in just one track and forget about the other tracks, we also very closely work together. So a lot of projects, a lot of go to market new features, we have to work on it together because, you know, for the customers, for our job seekers and even for our employers, they don't look at the product like, okay, this part of the product and this part of the product and this part of the product. They look at it as a whole. So we also have to look at it as a whole, despite, you know, being in different teams and stuff like that. Wow, fascinating. And so do you work with other departments? Is there a marketing department in your business? Yeah, yeah, sure. We do have a big marketing department and they're also divided into B2B and B2C. B2C is, you know, working on campaigns for the job seekers and they are also working on the performance of the job listings or like driving traffic to the job listings because we have different sources of traffic. We of course use paid sources as well. We use organic sources as well. There's a big. It's a big undertaking to work on the paid side of it and also the SEO side of it. So they do that. And we also have a B2B marketing team who are doing mostly campaigns for the employers and stuff like that. And there are also some people working on brand marketing because our brand presence is very strong in Hungary, but that's not a given thing, so we have to keep that. Especially now with AI and how much AI emphasizes and drives traffic to brands that are known and have good brand visibility. So, yeah, so people are also working on the whole brand as well, and social stuff and Gen z stuff. So TikTok, all that stuff. Yeah, so we have a pretty big marketing team and we really work very closely together, especially with the B2C marketing team, because job listing performance, which means that how many job seekers apply for a certain job and what's the, you know, the average number of job applicants, average number of applicants for a job listing is a. Is a joint responsibility with the marketing team because they Also they're of course driving traffic. But in order for the applicants to convert or the job seekers to convert into an applicant, that's also, that's on us basically because that happens on site. So the, the product and the flow has to be good and you know, top notch in order to that for that to happen. So there really are so many crossovers between marketing and product. I guess I didn't really realize that before. And when you're just talking about the, talking about the conversions within the, within the site and how that's on you, I mean that could, you could say that's marketing. So yeah, it's really interesting how that works. And you mentioned earlier about the go to market and so are you also running go to market strategies within, within your teams? Yeah, yeah, sure. So basically how I would say where marketing starts and where marketing ends and where product starts is just basically different parts of the funnel. I would say at least for us because basically marketing is driving in the traffic and then on the product on site or in app or whatever. We are at the end of the funnel. So this where the potential leads, we can call them leads, the job seekers convert. And so there's definitely a lot of maybe the marketing guys are looking into click through rates through I don't know, paid Google advertisement, but we are looking at churn rates on the application page. How many people start the application and they don't finish it? And why can we move this field up? What if they don't want to give their, you know, required salary and that's why they are not finishing the application etc. Etc. So that's how I see it. Basically we are both part of the same big funnel but we are just responsible for different parts of the funnel. And the other question that you asked, go to market strategies, again this is very much like a joint thing in the sense that, well, it depends what we are trying to bring into the market. But whenever basically we are doing say a new, not even the new feature, but let's say a new feature or a new product or VR redesigning a product or we are changing something in the core product. I can give you an example. So basically we are redesigning our CV generator or CV maker right now because we have one on the site but it's quite old and in order for that, for that product to be, you know, to, to be finished and to go to the market, there's a lot of development, there's a lot of that. First of all, like it starts from understanding the customer. What does the job seeker need, what do they want, etc. Etc. So in this way is also very similar to marketing. Like how marketing conducts markets, research, be Personas or segment audiences. We also do that, but we just call it user interviews and user research. And we use analytics and we use deep interviews. So the product manager is responsible for doing all that, you know, groundwork, understanding what the user needs. And of course there's a lot of. That's not the exciting part as, but it's also very, you know, the complicated, the building part. Because product manager has to work together with the designers and developers in order to make that product. But when the product is, let's say finished and it can launch and we can release it, then in this case, in this example as well with the CV maker, we are doing a big campaign around it that because a lot of CV makers are paid and ours is going to be free and how it's new and how it will have in the future AI features as well. They can help you rewrite your CV, etc. Extra. It's very modern, it's very great, blah, blah, blah. So in the sense that launching this to the market and have communication around it, that's the marketing side of it. And we work together closely with marketing because the product manager is basically is always giving a brief what does he or she want, how he or she wants to position this product, what wants to be the unique selling points etc, etc. And the marketing of course also inputs their professional opinion and they work together to put on a campaign. So there's basically two sides of going to market. One is like building the product and the other one is launching the product on the market. And this is how we basically work together and doing that. It's quite interesting because I think this is because of the size of your company that you are able to split these functions. For smaller businesses, usually your marketing person is doing all of it, right? Yeah. And I think, well, when we worked together, that was our case really. We were marketing and product, right? We were, we did all of it across the board. But I think the benefit of splitting it as you grow bigger and you know, for companies that are growing, this is definitely something to think about. Not just expanding your marketing team, but looking at is there a place for a product person separate from marketing? Because the benefit is the level of detail that you are looking at is completely different. Would you agree with that? Yeah, definitely. But I think also this, it doesn't just depend on the size of the company but also on the product that the company has. Because if it's like a, I'm not sure if that still exists like a purely offline product nowadays because like everything is online of course. But if you have, if your product is a software then it's, you know, you can just do it like from a marketing perspective. It's definitely because it's very technical, a lot of programming and a lot of, you know, different areas of expertise that comes into that. But when your product is, let's say an insurance and you also have like a digital side, we also did digital marketing and stuff like that. You may even have a digital product in the sense that maybe they can apply online for, for the insurance and stuff like that. In this sense. Yeah, A lot of small companies have just one person or two person and they are doing this and that as well. They're also communicating with developers. Maybe they don't have in house developers but they have vendors or contractors and stuff like that. So yeah, because I can very much attest to that because when you know, I left our previous employer and started looking into something else, I didn't know I wanted to go into software development and product management. I was just looking at you know, job listings and stuff like that. And I found this job listing at profession and they were looking for an online product manager. That was the job title. And I looked at the job description, I was like, I, I can do that. I, I, I was already doing that being a marketer but I didn't know this is what it was called, you know, in digital products and stuff like that. So I was very much like a natural, you know, change for me in that sense. So yeah, you're right, they are very similar and in some companies they are the same role or the same person. And of course in a lot of companies that are not like purely software development, it might not even be called a product manager. They can be like product portfolio manager or they can be like a product coordinator or marketing brand manager or something like. So there are a lot of names for what we do but essentially what it's important is that the product manager is responsible for the long term vision and success of a product. And that in this case is a digital product. But it can be anything else as well. And so the reason I like it and even if, if anyone listening, if this is your one job, is to even just split it in your brain because the, the focus is on the existing customer, the focus is on, on their usage, you know, how often are they coming back, are they dropping off? So it brings a Lot more focus and we spent a lot of time in our, in our previous work. Think about retention, right? Why did, why are people leaving? What's the triggers? How could we make them stay upselling, cross selling? How do we make them buy something else? How do we make them pay us more money? I think all of that can fit quite nicely into the product space depending on what your product is. And when you're in marketing, you're so focused on the upfront metrics you're trying to drive in new business and I call it the leaky bucket, you forget that actually once you've got the customer, you actually need to be doing something with them. You've got to look after them, you need to still talk to them, communicate with them because otherwise they're just leaving out the back door and you're just, you're just causing a whole lot of pain by bringing more in so that they can walk. And so I love that split because whatever you calling it in your business, if you're big enough to do that and even in a small business, you know, maybe think about instead of hiring a second marketing person that you hire someone to look after your existing base because they need a bit of focus and energy to make sure that revenue is solid and stable and sticky and growing while someone else is doing their print stuff. I think you have to be also though I agree that I like that. But you just have to be careful with maybe creating silos when you start creating different team exactly names. You don't want to then create the perception that you're, that you're different units. You are still essentially the same and you need to feed your information into the front end and the front end need to fill the, fill their information. In fact, for example, you cannot be saying one thing in the front end marketing and not delivering in the continued relationship that you have with the subscriber or the user of your product. You have to continue that experience from the beginning all the way to the end. And just like Erica said about the retention, it's kind of a lot of the time in businesses we focus on the front end. It's like they're thinking about I need to get people, more people into the, into my shop, walking into my shop. But they not really paying attention about how many people are leaving. And that's such a big part of it because an existing client has so much more value to your customer, to your, to your business than someone who's not a client already. And it's much easier and well, maybe not easier but it's much cheaper to keep that person there rather than the person who isn't there either. So you just have to be careful when creating these separate teams that it doesn't mean that they're then separate competing teams, but they need to be kind of symbiotic, you know, together working for the same goal. And so Esther, how do you do that? How do you make sure that your team and marketing are not going in different directions? Well, the easy answer is that we have the same KPIs and incentives basically. So, yeah, basically the same goals that we need to achieve. So that's a very easy thing to set. I mean easy. I mean you have to define these KPIs, but once you agree on them and everyone has the same KPIs, then you can for sure be sure that you're working towards the same goal. But other than that, in the day to day work that we communicate a lot, we work together a lot. For example, whenever we have a new idea for a product and for example we have like an ideation workshop, we invite marketing into that. The first step, they have to be there. We need a marketing mind there. How, okay, we might be able to build that and it might satisfy or even delight our customers, but how do we launch that? Is there other maybe risks in communication that we can come across, etc, etc? So basically when we work together, we have to involve each other at the first step of anything that we do basically because everything starts with products. So it's basically it's more like in the sense that we have to involve marketing into whatever we are doing, but also whatever, you know, they are always trying to optimize how, you know, we acquire, for example, new users or new traffic and stuff like that. And we also make decisions together, we think about stuff together. So it's a very symbiotic relationship. And it's just as Alex said, it's very important to try to find a working relationship and a working flow so that you don't become like separate silos and stuff like that. And that's also true with other product teams as well, and not just marketing, but especially important with marketing. And would you say you have to have the same Persona? Yeah, yeah, for sure. We don't usually call it Personas. Nowadays we call it like maybe, let me try to translate it like user attitudes or user behavior segments basically. Because Personas can be a bit outdated in the sense that a lot of people, when you say Personas, they think about like, okay, maybe this is a white collar person, they Work in hr they are called Jessica Whatnot. And then that can create a bias. We much prefer to talk about user behavior and attitude because that's a bit like more it's not that outlined and not that drawn but more like describes how some users behave. Like for example, some job seekers are very focused in what they want. They know what they're seeking, they know what they want to do, they know their preferences and they know how to search for it, they know how to find it, they know how to apply. And of course there are job seekers, they come to our site and they sit, you know, in front of the keyboard bar and they don't know what to write in there, they don't know how to search for it, they know what they want like a very basic outline. They know they, for example, they want to work part time. They know what their skill sets are, but they don't know what they are good for. So there are a lot of different behaviors in the sense but these behaviors, just to answer your questions and have to be clear for both marketing and both product because I mean it depends on a campaign or whatever because we have mass market campaigns as well of course where it's quite difficult to segment communications and stuff like that. But we do a lot of automation, email automation that this marketing is responsible for. And in a lot of those cases it's very important to have these behaviors in mind because it's. It really much depends on how we communicate with one type of user or one type of job seeker and the other. So these kind of user behavior attitudes, they are very clear for both marketing and product. And they are, they are the same. Fantastic. We had my friend Sandy Graham on a few weeks ago, now I can't even remember and she's in real estate marketing. And it was an eye opener to me that real estate marketing is about attracting the sellers, not the buyers. And now listening to you, it feels like in this job market I'm also for me it would have been about finding people with jobs who want jobs. But it sounds like I've got it wrong. What is your primary focus? Are you looking for people with jobs to post or people who are looking for jobs? It depends who you're asking within the company because that's where it comes into like the B2B and the B2C side. Of course we are also making money from the employers and not the job seekers. So that's our business model. They are paying for the job listing to be displayed and we are distributing that job listing to the job seekers. And they get job seekers applicants and they can hire someone. So that's the product basically. But what my team is responsible for is the user experience and the success of the application. So for the job seeker side of it and what we are looking for or what we are working towards is basically driving and converting the best applicants for the job. So that's our, that's our job. But we can never forget that you know our business model is to we have to have jobs on the side in order for this to work or if or even for you know, job seekers to come to profession hu. So that's why we have with the main focus of the B2B side a separate B2B product team where their main focus is how and the B2B marketing team and we have a very big sales team. Our biggest department is the sales department. So that's the. I would still say that although our product is, you can say it the software digital product. We are very much a sales driven company in the sense that we have to have inventory, we have to have listings on the site. So but I don't know we are in the fortunate or position that we need to worry about how we convert the applicants and how we can give them a good experience. But I don't think either or either is more important than the other because neither side is working without the other. Right. So if we don't have inventory then we don't have job seekers but if we don't have job seekers we can have all the inventory in the world but there will be no applicants and our customers, I mean B2B customers won't be satisfied. So it's very much a symbiotic thing. But yeah, as a whole our company is very much focused you know on bringing in all the inventory and have to have all the available jobs in Hungary has to be listed on profession Hu. That is our very much a mission. But, but our team is mostly focused on the job seeker site. What from a software point of view what are the biggest and I'm going to say marketing because I, I'm, when I say marketing I mean kind of that whole funnel on the front end and then where you guys are, what are the biggest challenges in terms of creating like a sticky products? I think you, you mentioned sticky products earlier in, in the software world I mean specifically because there's, it's different depending on the product or, or service. So just wondering like what is that and how do you guys, you know focus on that and really improve and optimize that part of the business. Yeah, well, there are a lot of challenges, but I would say that because it's inherently a digital product, and so product technology is very much like a factor in all of this. And because technology is changing very fast, it can be a challenge to build products that not just satisfy our customers, but delight them. So that's a difference in the sense that of course, when, for example, you have, let's say, Spotify, everyone uses Spotify and you're just searching for a song and you play the song and the song plays, maybe it's a very good quality and. And that's it. That's basically the core function of that software. But what Spotify and a lot of very successful digital products do, that they delight customers in the sense that they are basically predicting your needs or, you know, foreseeing your needs and foreseeing your desires, like how they basically, for example, recommend you music that you never thought that you would like. Same with YouTube. It's a lot of recommendation, especially in social media now or, you know, content, stuff like that. So I would say the most challenging thing is that especially for us, we are a very old product in the sense that profession is 22 years old. So we were the first job board, first to market in Hungary. And it's a challenge for products like us to keep up with the technology as well, because there's a lot of legacy codes and in the, in the sort of, in the sprint of keeping up with the technology, to have capacity to think about innovation and not just satisfying our customers and our job seekers and our employers, but to delight. And I think that's the most challenging thing because when you're, I mean, it's very, very much depends on the maturity of the digital product you're talking about because for a lot of startups, it's very good. It's nothing's easy. But I would say it's easier to innovate in the sense and move fast and pivot fast and stuff like that. They can just change things, a B test and change it like from one day to the other and try out the different stuff. When you have a mature product, it's much harder to. When you steer the boat, for example, for a startup where maybe they have a jet skill and they steer it and it turns right away, but maybe we have the Titanic and you steer it and it takes a lot of time to, you know, change direction. So for us, I think that's a lot of. That's, that's the biggest challenge. And in an environment like that, how can you keep up with the innovation? Because we are all digital products, we are software. So it's changing from one day to the other. Especially now we are in a new era of AI. So it's, it's quite difficult. But you know, there are a lot of smart people in this business and you can always look for examples from some places and there's a very good benchmarks on the market and you know, copying is not a shame if it's good. So you know, you can, you can, you know, exchange ideas and learn from the, from the biggest companies in the sense. Fabulous. And how would you. I suppose I'm thinking as you were talking that when you're new and you've got a small base, communicating changes to your product becomes easier. But you know, with 22 years in the market, I think you said, and people are used to, and people don't like change. We know that. Right. If they're used to X, you know, have you had struggles with communicating a change to the platform with, with some of your existing users? Not so much with the job seeker side, but rather with the employer side especially. We have customers, companies that been with us for these 20 years. And whenever we are changing stuff, sometimes there is a conflict between, or a perceived conflict maybe I would say about whether is this good for the job seeker or is this good for the employers. But by the end of the day, whatever we are doing, we want to benefit both parties. But sometimes there is very much a bias. Why are we doing this? And yeah, we are doing this so we could have a better experience for the job seekers. But if it's a better experience for the job seekers, for example, we had a whole transformation in the sense that what kind of data we are requiring for the employers in the job posting and they have to mandatory, they have to add that information, you know, in a mandatory way. And of course there was a lot of, you know, pushback like why do I have to add this information etc. Etc. Of course we are doing that so that we can have better quality job listings for the job seekers. But the end of the day, the reason for that is so that we can have better quality applicants. Because for example, if the job listing contains the salary information, the people who are not, you know, satisfied with that salary range, they won't apply. But if you don't display the salary information, everyone will apply just in case and you will have to sort through all of that applicants. So it is, you know, it can be delicate to implement changes to the employer side especially because our Job seekers, they use other digital products, they use a lot of stuff. They all, they basically live on their phone and stuff like that. So a lot of them are very digitally savvy. They use it in their day to day life. I think in the job seeker side, whenever we were afraid of, you know, introducing a new change, I think we were always like wrong in the sense that they adapted very quickly. On the employer side, however, it can be difficult sometimes, but not impossible. And that's how we, we always, you know, go through it like trying to give as much information for the employers as to why we are doing something to give them ammunition, to make them understand at the end of the day the results are speaking for themselves. But introducing new stuff like that can be challenging. But that's why we have a very good marketing team so they can spin it in a way that it's very positive and stuff like that. And also the employer side is very much like a desktop kind of segment in the sense that they are using profession in their work hours on their laptops or their PCs. So yeah, it's very different viewpoints in the sense but, but nothing so far we couldn't, you know, overcome and basically bring the two parties as close together as possible. Well, definitely easier than when we all work together to implement gdpr. Right. That was. Oh yeah, a massive change which some of our customers didn't take too kindly to. Yet we got through that, so yeah, yeah we did. Right. Well Esther, it's been so wonderful catching up with you and hearing about this exciting new world you found yourself in. If anyone wants to chat to you about product or just find out more about this product that you have, how can they get hold of you? Yeah, sure. I mean you can check me out on, on LinkedIn. Maybe we can leave a link somewhere in the episode and you know, if you have a great idea. Product idea. Yeah, of course in, you know my main job is to working at profession but I'm always looking for new product adventures, ideas. I can give you advice if you want to start a new product. Maybe you have a great idea for an app or something like that and you just don't know who to talk to. You can just hit me up on LinkedIn and we can chat and maybe I can just steer you in the right direction and maybe contact, give you some contacts. So yeah, I'm always happy to chat about great products. Oh fabulous. What is your biggest takeaway from today? Well, first of all, that sounds like a great offer for anyone who's looking for someone to talk to in products. So I would, I would just, you know, highlight that to everyone and I guarantee Esther will be open to speaking to anyone. So do not be afraid. I would say that. Well, my biggest learning from today really was is that is the amount of crossover between marketing and, and product. I have to say I did, I didn't really, I didn't really think of it that way before I saw product and marketing and thought product was more of a technical service or technical profession rather than necessarily like just kind of user based engagement work. So yeah, it was quite, it was cool to hear about the similarities. Yeah, that, that's kind of really my view, my view on today. Fantastic. Is there any last words of advice you want to give to our listeners? Yeah, sure. If you're remarketing and you're interested in software development, don't be afraid to make the leap. There's a lot of entry jobs and you know, if you're interested in this, this might be the word for you. And we welcome all marketing professionals and thank you for having me. It was so great to see you guys and talk to you. I missed you. It's been wonderful. Was trying to think when the last time was we caught up and I'm, I'm picturing a Cosmopolitan in Budapest. Is that your last. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was it. You were here and we went out. Yeah, yeah, I think that was it. Feels like it's time for a repeat Cosmopolitan in Budapest. Feels like. Yeah, yeah, that has to be on the cards for sure. Oh, it's lovely to see you. Thank you so much for joining us, Alex. It's been fun as always and I will see you again. Thanks everyone. Bye. Bye. Thank you guys. Bye. That wraps up this episode of Giraffes Don't Eat Steak. Thanks for joining us. I hope you found value in our discussion and got some new ideas to apply to your own business. Tune in next week for another round of marketing insights and inspiration. 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