The Power of Tracking: Marketing Attribution Strategies for Businesses - Ep. 42

 The Power of Tracking: Marketing Attribution Strategies for Businesses - Ep. 42.

Welcome to "Giraffes Don't Eat Steak"! 

In today's episode, Erica and Alex dive into the pivotal topic of marketing attribution with special guest, Alex Shrimpton. 

The discussion sheds light on the crucial need for businesses to track and attribute their marketing efforts to gauge return on investment at every touchpoint. 

From highlighting the accessibility and tracking features of HubSpot to the significance of utilising unique identifiers for offline marketing, the hosts and guest unravel the intricate world of marketing attribution. 

Stay tuned as we unravel the importance of tracking and attributing interactions for business success.

00:00 Discussing marketing attribution and tracking expenses accurately.

06:10 Insurance businesses use different approaches for attribution.

08:16 Understanding measurements is critical to support work.

12:33 HubSpot is my go-to choice for CRM.

14:18 Marketing attribution vital for small business success.

18:50 Bob's departure emphasises the need for control.

23:01 Campaign success.

25:35 Last click is the most important.

29:53 Testing small changes, attributing results takes time.

32:13 Understanding online marketing attribution and programmatic platforms.

34:59 Thanks for tuning in. See you next week!

#MarketingAttribution #PodcastEpisode #GiraffesDontEatSteak

Keywords: marketing attribution, tracking, marketing budget, attribution models, QR codes, analytics platforms, programmatic advertising, TikTok, customer preferences, data and measurements, SEO spending, PR spending, CRM systems, HubSpot, call intelligence platform, online interactions, offline campaigns, return on investment, small businesses

Connect with Alex on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-shrimpton
www.infinity.co/uk/

Erica: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erica-mackay/
Alex: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-bilney/

Get in touch with us at The Marketing Detective Agency - www.themarketingdetectiveagency.com

Transcript

0:00

This is the giraffes don't eat steak podcast. The show that brings you marketing stories, tips, hints, and much more. A treat for those who want to succeed in business or marketers who just want to learn. Hello, Alex. Hello. How are you doing? We had both Alex's. So guys, welcome to our show today. We have a guest whose name is also Alex. Alex Shrimpton, say hi and introduce yourself. Hi. I'm Alex Shrimpton. I head up financial services and insurance here at Infinity. My friends called me Marshall, so it's probably easier for us to do that for naming conventions today. Brilliant. Okay. We'll call you Marshall so we don't get confused with our Alex. I mean, when I when I was a kid, in in my social network, there was never anyone else called Alex. So my name was actually very unique when I was growing up. And then all of a sudden I hit a point in my life where there was Alex's everywhere and it, you know, it affect me deeply. I was like, I'm not unique anymore. Feel your pain if that's any consolation. Well, it is very funny for me because I now know a lot of When I have to kinda say, no. Bye, Alex. No. Not that, Alex. Bye, Alex. To differentiate. In fact, I sent, Alex Marshall. I sent Alex, a message that your Dylan sent to me saying, Alex referred me to you and told me to listen to your podcast, whatever. So I forwarded it to Alex, and he went, but I don't know this person. I'm like, no. He wasn't talking about you. And so he went, Alex Shorten. Well, because in in my mind, I was like, oh, you know, Erica always gets lots of these catfish kind of people. So I was like, well, maybe maybe this is another person that has done their done their due diligence and investigators saying that she knows she's got a colleague with Alex. So I'm gonna put the Alex. And I was like, oh, I better tell her, warn her. You know, I haven't actually spoken first. No. Dylan, if you're listening to this, you did a great job. Well done. At catfishing? At catfishing. Yeah. Professionally. Manufactured. Podcast on the professional catfish. That should be a thing. The professional catfish. Yeah. Actually, Yeah. We should. Alright. Note for later. Yeah. We should we should talk about a catfish, actually. I think there's a there's an angle there about about knowing your customer because some of them are good at at, investigating who you are, doing a bit of research, others are not. Right? Absolutely. So, Marshall, the reason that we, invited you on today is because I love some of the stuff you're doing in terms of, marketing attribution. So for the laypeople listening to the call, often when you spend in marketing, especially, to not track trackable things are easy. So if you buy Google Ads and you click to a landing page, and that goes straight through to salesperson, that's easy. You can say I spent x and I got sales. But if you're sending people generically to your website, and then they just go to a and and where to spend more money and where to spend less. And as we've shared on the show many, many times, both Alex and I are a little bit, cheap. We don't like spending money. We wanna make sure we're getting the optimum ROI for our buck, and so we like knowing. So, Alex, tell us a little bit more about the solution that you have. So Infiniti is a call intelligence platform. It was built off call tracking. Call tracking effectively, it bridges the gap between online and offline customer interaction, so it provides a complete view of that customer's journey. I think there's a bit of misinterpretation in the industry around what call tracking is in this description. It, it involves assigning unique phone numbers to different marketing sources that you talked about, but it's also also around dynamically tracking interactions on the website. So it's tracking the same things that Google analytics is tracking. So page to page interactions, where they came in from, how long they spent on each page, were they downloading anything or watching content, that kind of stuff. What it's also doing is it's providing a unique number specific to that user's session. So means that when a phone call comes in off the back of that online journey, we can tie those two pieces of information together. And that's invaluable for marketers because you can say that marketing source or that keyword spend that I put into the front end has driven that journey and driven that call. Fabulous. What do you think, Alex? Exciting. Yeah. I mean, I I I love it, and I especially, having visibility every single step is crucial to be able to optimize your campaigns. There's a and I just wanted to pick up first of what you said, Eric. It's like, you know, when, because we did another episode before where we said we've spoken to lots of businesses and even marketers. Do you have a business in a lot of them saying, no. We we don't we don't have it. So I we it you can't actually say it's a given that even if they're doing online advertising that they've got all the correct, analytics in you. I think we did we did we did cover that before. But it's much more accessible, the the online analytics. There's a lot of built in stuff. But when you're taking offline to online, I think that's where you can find a lot of, lost touch points, and and and it's it's it's really, really important to be able to to have visibility on those. Otherwise, you're kind of fishing in the dark. Fishing in the dark? Looking in the dark. Search in the dark. I don't know. I guess you can fish in the dark. A lot of people do night fishing, don't they? That's in Facebook. No. Really good point. I suppose on that point, like, I see I see different ends from different sides of insurance and from financial services. I've got businesses that are 90% plus of their businesses done over the phone. Companies like, well, previously Aston Mark is an example, Howden Group now, where a huge amount of their business is being transacted over the phone. They're spending a huge amount on paid media. There's no way of tracking that and attributing that. But then on the flip side of things, there you've got something like direct line group where, you know, less than 10% of their total business is probably done over the phone, but actually it's almost as important for them to have call tracking as it is for those with 90%, because in those bigger scales, especially when you're working with higher margins, the direct line group, they're using things like econometrics for their attribution modeling. Yep. Yeah. And actually having call tracking in place to be able to tie together those crucial parts of the journey that you're missing. You talk about 10%, but 10% for a business that's spending 20,000,000 a year on PPC. I mean, that's a huge amount of money that you're not attributing. And when you talk about stock stockholders and share shareholders that are investing in that, they wanna know where that £2,000,000 is going. Yeah. Absolutely. And even though and we've been in businesses, Alex, where the spend was fine. We had big budgets. It was going. But there's always some sort of turning point where suddenly you need to justify your spend, budgets get cut, you know, which part of your marketing budget do you cut? If you're not understanding which part is actually driving the right revenue, you're gonna make the mistake and cut the wrong piece. And there's some softer issues like SEO, search engine optimization, which is much harder to be able to say I spent x, therefore I got y. And and if you don't really understand how it all fits together and which part of it is driving the actual spend, you're gonna cut the wrong thing and find a huge drop in revenue. Yeah. And, also, it's not only is it just makes sense to be able to understand your your the the measurement the measurements that you have. But it's it's just also the arsenal that you have to to, support the work that you're doing. So, I mean, we've had I've had personal experience where someone who's not working in marketing but does have a decision on what you're doing, someone in finance or even just someone higher up, they would say, I I don't like this. I don't think it's working. And if you don't have the if you don't have the measurements in place, you can't say, hello. It is working because then you're just fighting back with your own opinion, really. But if you have the the data and the to back it up, then, you know, then then this is not really a conversation, is it? Just if if if if you have something that's saying it's absolutely it's working, then, you know, then it then it stays like that. But if you have nothing to say that it's working, then it's just your body getting yes. Your feelings versus the feelings of some who is in a higher position with you. And guess what? The person with the feelings in a higher position than you Will win. Will win. Will win. That's the way it goes. Yeah. And that's the thing, like, day data removes emotion. Yeah. Being able to have being able to have that actual data to prove a point, it just removes any of that, you know, perspective or interpretation around it. Yes, there's a little bit in amongst, you know, reading the data in the right way, but it's a lot more conclusive than saying, oh no, no. I know that that's worked. No, exactly. I love that data removes emotion. Really cool. And one of the you made a point there, Erica, actually around SEO, and that's a really, really good point because the biggest pain point that I come across when I'm speaking to marketing teams is, you know, where's the biggest spend? It's paid media Yeah. Or events. Those are the 2 big ones. It's one of those 2. And it's like we need to be able to prove and attribute the spend that we're doing there because we wanna be able to go and ask for more, or we're gonna be able to, you know, do a better job of what we're doing at the moment. But when you talk about SEO and you talk about things like PR as an example, you know, you talk about a brand like Lotus, you talk about like big public public authority organizations and so on that are spending tons on PR in terms of getting the right PR and changing and shaping. It's like, how do you prove that? And that's part of where we look to assist as well because we've got the call tracking piece there that's the start. The during the call piece is actually understanding what's happening on the call. And something as simple as, oh, I saw in Radio Times or I saw in the Telegraph. You know, hearing that on a call means that we can understand and and attribute that correctly. And then actually the customer journey piece there, if you can see that they've been on the website 7 times and 2 of them were from paid media, the rest of them were from organic, clearly you're doing your job. Yep. Lab And that's that's why I think that attribution model and whatever attribution model that business is picking is so important. Yeah. But it's not just for big businesses. Right? I mean No. I think with a lot a lot of times when we talk again, just in our previous episode, we were talking about, what were we talking about? We were talking about we were talking about, CRM systems. And that for some small businesses, it can feel quite overwhelming to go from maybe what they're currently doing, which might be in Excel or even just writing down a piece of paper, all of the information they have, taking that step into into a a completely digital world in with a platform that offers so many things. It can make a bit overwhelming. And a lot of small business owners think, oh, well, that's just not for me. But there are lots of options in terms of, pricing packages. You can start small, get big, or whatever, but still, it's I still think it's very, very applicable to those small businesses. I mean, what's your what's your opinion on that, Alex, and the and the value you can drive for small businesses versus versus large businesses? I think CRMs I think for for me personally, my CRM of choice would always be HubSpot personally because actually, for a small business, it can provide everything. It could do the hosting of your CMS. It can do your marketing automation, your email nurture. It can do your CRM note taking. You can actually do calls inbound and outbound from that platform as well, and it will log everything in the same place. So I think for a a CRM, for any business, regardless of the size, it is your corporate memory. You know, if you wanted to then teach and train someone else to take over that, it has all of that data in the right place, whether you're using it in the right way is a completely different story, but there something like HubSpot has all of the training there and has all the resources in place to be able to do that. And I'm just speaking biased here for 1, There's loads of different CRM platforms out there, but I think, I think that for any business, you really should have a basic CRM system in place regardless of what it is. You definitely shouldn't be having it in a notepad or in an Excel sheet, something that's static. It should be something that you can adjust and see the changes on. Because if you can say, okay, add a customer that I originally met at this networking event, you know, we spoke about X, Y, Z, and you can log that in the CRM. As soon as you get back from that networking event, 2 weeks late, you've sent them an email. Hey. It was great to meet you a couple of weeks back. You've then had a meeting. You've then followed up. You know, 6 months down the line, you've done a bit of business. You wanna be able to tie back that that was the networking event that you met them at. You wanna be able to see all the different touch points in the middle. So important. So important. And you just you there's no way anyone will be able to remember everything that's happened there. And whether you use that data or not right then, it's still important to have that tracked because at some point in the future, if you're gonna look to scale, you wanna know you wanna have the data on place to be able to interrogate and say what works best. Well, we know that networking works best because it needs this many touch points to close a deal. Absolutely. And it's the same with the marketing attribution. Right? I would even argue that it's possibly even more important important with a large business where you might have deep pockets, and you could possibly you could possibly turn a blind eye to some leaky leaky holes. But as a small business, you know, every penny really counts and being able to being able to understand exactly what your what your return on your investment is at every at every touch point is really, really important. But what from if we just stay on the small business point of view, what from your perspective, what is kind of, like, the basic setup that is required for for a small business owner to start, understanding their the full journey of their customer in terms of, their marketing and the attribution from offline to online. I could do myself out of a job here. I'm just talking about hub so HubSpot again, I would say is the, is the best. I mean, you can get a start up package on HubSpot for a grand and that's a year's license that gives you access to their service hub, their sales hub. It gives you access to their marketing hub. It gives you access to their CMS platform. You can build a website on there. Do you have an affiliate code, Alex? No. I don't know. But you but you I'm speaking from I'm speaking from personal experience. Like, it's it's a great platform and it does everything out of the box. So many different CMS platforms like WordPress or Wix, you have to integrate or set up logins and stuff, all these different analytics platforms and things that you're going to do, whereas HubSpot, everything has everything in built, you know, your cookie tracking, your journey tracking, that kind of stuff, all of that is in the platform already. And you build a website in there it's tracking from day 1, it's tracking all that activity. So if you're out of the box, you're starting fresh. I would say, yeah, absolutely look at HubSpot because that is a great system just to get you off the ground quickly. It is, is a fairly decent investment in terms of a small business, because he's got a, he's got a grand grand and a half spare when you're starting a brand new business. But it's a it's an investment I would say is a very worthwhile one if you're if you're really serious about it. And and what about if they go if they're from offline to online? So from if they if they're running offline marketing, advertising campaigns, and that are driving people online. What would your suggestion be there? Because I guess HubSpot is not designed for that side of things. Right? No. No. But, I mean, we we integrate with HubSpot. But the easiest way for the offline stuff, you're either going to have a phone number or you're going to have a UTM that you're going to create in some way, whether that's a QR code or whether that is a particular domain that you're sending them to, whatever it might be, there will be a way of tracking that, you know, this was the piece of collateral or at least in an ideal world, you should have an unique identifier for that piece of collateral. You know, I attended this event. This was the booklet I had. This was the leaflet I had, and this was the UTM parameter from that that code. That's that's the really simple stuff that you should be tracking just to say, you know, this is what I set. This is what I showed them. This is what they had, and then they've come to the website because they've got that piece of collateral. That's number 1. And, like, our system is an example. We can track that and link that in. But then that online journey, that's that's where that ties together. And if you've got a phone call that then happens, you know, 2 weeks later, 3 weeks later, a month later off the back of that, we can then tie those journeys together. So you can say, you know, visits coming from offline collateral. They come back 2 months later. They then picked up the phone and called in. Being able to just attribute those points together, that's gonna be your last click, you know, the your last touch attribution that that drove that. So I was what do we I we use SMS codes. Right? Unique SMS codes of every different channel when we did TV advertising. Right? Every diff every channel had its own SMS codes. That's how we knew. Or unique phone numbers. We used to have a bank of phone numbers. Remember, Alex? We could track every phone number to every channel. So there's different ways of doing it. What I loved about chatting to you the other day, Alex, was when we're talking events. And, like, one of my bugbears is when you send people to events, often they have their own business cards with their own phone number in. And that's fabulous. They're handing out these business cards with phone numbers all over. But if that person leaves your organization, anyone with that business card goes with him. It's it's unconscious, but that's the number they have. So they're gonna keep phoning, let's say, Bob. That number. And if Bob's gone to competitor x, that person's gone with Bob. Whereas your solution provides unique numbers that the business can own. And therefore, if you phone, you're gonna ask for Bob, and we're gonna go, oh, sorry. Bob's no longer with us, but Alice is fabulous. Let me put her through to you so that we're keeping control of that, interaction and that event, because events can be costly, especially if you have a stand. You know, if you think about the brochures, if you think about the collateral, all the water bottles, and everything that goes into an event, you don't actually want, you know, contact details there to be out of your control. And that's I love that solution is that if you they could still go be sent to, you know, the right person or whatever. But if you do have a case of and and a lot of businesses, think about the call center we worked in, Alex, the the staff don't stay long. Right? They they're in for for short tranches. So you have so much churn that you actually do need to manage that that is that those contacts are staying within your business and not, walking off with with whoever has walked out the door. Right? So I I love that. I thought that was a really cool way to keep control, and you can have that unique number per event. So that's you know, for event x, this is the number. So even if people phone 3 months, 6 months later, which often they do, and especially the insurance where you've got the renewal cycles. So, you know, when you're talking to them may not be when their insurance is up for renewal, But then they in 3 months time, the insurance is up for renewal. They go dig out for that that card. I'm being super optimistic that this is what people do. But then they they're still coming in and you can still allocate. Oh, yes. This is for, you know, the event I held in February because the number is is allocated. Am I right? Have I have I That's correct. Memorized it correctly? You have. You have. Wish it could be a job. Yeah. That's that's completely right. And you you make a good point there, actually, especially in the broker space because the, you know, the loyalty within the brokers, you know, they flip around. They move from brokerage to brokerage, you know, and that point does happen quite a lot. You know, you get people that, you know, have been in a business for 2 years. They get, they get cold feet, whatever it is that they're doing, you know, they call the jets and they calm down a little bit, and then they get another offer from another broker and then they move their book of business and they move themselves across somewhere else. And then they move all of their clients across as well. But it's, it's, it's an element of control and it's an element of attribution is, is keeping the attribution there. Because it makes sense. If the customer phones a number and they're talking to Bob, and Bob's going, okay. But I'm no longer with b. I'm now with c. The clients are gonna care. Okay, Bob. I'm speaking to you. It's fine. But if they're finding a, going, I'm looking for Bob, and, like, oh, Bob's not with us anymore. Speak to to speak to Alice, whatever it is. They'll stay with the business. So it's actually just if you're intercepting the customer before they speak to the person, you've won. Right? There's the hi. Unless they really loved Bob, you know, and then, like, oh, no. Thank you. Hang up the phone. I'm gonna go and search on LinkedIn to find Bob, and I'm gonna follow him wherever. I mean, that's that's the only chance that you'll lose it then, right, if they're that passionate about Bob. Don't know why I'm saying Bob. But, anyway No. I completely completely agree. What do you think, Alex? Is that something we would have loved to have? No. Absolutely. I mean, what I remember, we used to do a lot of number generation for lots of different, TV channels. And at some point, I think I was just having dreams about the short four digit SMS codes that we had. We did it all on Excel spreadsheets. Yeah. I know. And I think at one point, I was pretty much memorized how to say all the above 4 digits, SMS codes in Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Greek Slovak. Bakian. Yeah. At one point, I was fluent in those languages only if we talked about 4 digit numbers. But, but but seriously, though, it was the difference between successful campaigns and non successful campaigns. The the amount of the amount of detail and data that we could get from those campaigns that we're running with those unique numbers and the and the attribution was actually was incredible. We were but to be honest, we maybe we took it we took it quite far. I think some of the TV stations actually hated us in the end because, because we're like, we don't want that spot. That spot is bad. We want the spot 30 seconds later. Exactly. And then we and we were also sending them different it's effectively a different TV app because it has a different number and coded it hard hard, coded into it, you know, as part of the video. So it's not just a number. We were sending them millions of different, files saying we want these everywhere. And they're like, oh, no. What are you doing to us? We're like, yeah. I'm sorry. But, it's And if they got it wrong, they put the wrong ad with the wrong number on the wrong link. No. That's the wrong one. We're not paying for that spot. We told you that 3 664 goes on that channel, not this one. Yeah. I mean I mean, I think we we were doing it in countries where it wasn't common practice. Yeah. It wasn't norm the norm. So we were sort of we were really kind of breaking the mold. It was a lot of work to do, but it was very, very beneficial. And it was honestly the difference between having the business and not having the business. Yeah. Yeah. Do do you mind me just asking a question off the back of that? Because SMS is like one channel in amongst a multitude. And one question I always get asked is around the attribution model that the business is using. Now I normally find that people are still using last click, but, obviously, there's so many different attribution models out there now. I know linear attribution, first click, u shaped. In those how how in your experience have businesses done the attribution modeling, and what do you find is the, I suppose, the most common? I think it's definitely last click because it's the one you know. Right? It's the interaction with the business wherever you difficulty is you don't know the 20 steps that happened before. And, we had a rule with especially in TV So, therefore, you can't even if they had no, So, therefore, you can't even if they had no clicks, let's call it clicks, but it was, you know, calls or SMSes, from the first 7. They if you delete the 7, you're not gonna get the 1 because now they're on step 1, and they still need another 6 to go. So it's it's a hard one, but I think in the main, I'm still seeing lots and lots of last click. What about you, Alex? No. I would I would agree with that. It's the most appealing one, I guess. It's the it's as you said, it's the it's the visible one. It's the tangible it's the tangible action, which makes it It just makes sense to to to most people, I guess. Especially for people who don't understand marketing. Because then it's action equals result. Right? That's that's easy to make sense. For for us in marketing, we understand, no, there had to be brand awareness, interest. There's all these other top of the funnel stuff before you got to even action. So if you cut out the top of the funnel, you've got nothing, but it's that's a marketing conversation. You try and have that with a CFO, and we did try. It it didn't work well. You know, you try and have it with someone in finance who's only interested in you spend x and you generate y. Right? That's it. They're not here's all the stuff you had to do in order to even get the click. That's that's why, I mean, that's why digital is actually it's just amazing. Where having having a having a clear funnel with, you know, all of your different content touch points along the way, you can you can actually very, very easily understand which content or which point in the journey people are starting to then go it starts to push them for the last click. It is a lot more ambiguous when you're talking about if you're going from straight from TV to call center, for example. But even even we did direct mail, Alex, or martial arts, let's call you. And that's also another interesting one. And we had direct mail packs with different again, a different number in each version. So we did different versions to a b test. A b sometimes a, b, c, d, e, f, g test. Right? Different versions. Because you need you know, in a direct mail, starts with the envelope, starts with, you know, what's what's on the cover, you know, then if they even open it, I mean, there's so many variations to what causes someone to buy. So we used to do all these variations and literally in each variation, we put a different phone number. And that was the only way we could track. But the problem with that is you couldn't see from the from the open of the envelope because that's what you know, we got deliverability at least from the post office. That was the report. It wasn't actually delivered or not. But from there, you're in a black hole until someone picks up the phone. There's nothing. And we did try for a while to send them to the website, but that's even bigger black hole. Because if you've got a URL, trying to get someone to put in the forward slash blah blah blah so that you can track it. They don't do it. Right? They just go straight for the brand name, and you've lost everything, and you don't know where they've come from. So, so that's so direct mail's another interesting one that that you have to go into lots of detail, but you still won't get attribution 100%. Well, that that's where that's where testing that's where testing comes in. Right? And that's where, attribute your your testing sort of there's the crossover between testing and attribution. Yeah. Right? So you're making one small test at a time. That's when you can start to attribute something to it. So for example, if I tell you an example of the d of the DMs, if everything if you've got lots and lots of data of one particular campaign and, say, a year's worth of data, and then you change one thing like the the color of the envelope, just that. If you then start seeing a, a deviation from your the results that you've been previously having, like, less cause or more cause or something, you can then attribute that change to, so that that change to that change in the result Yeah. Whether it's positive or negative. So it's a it's a it's a slower game because you need previous data and time and then just one one change, and then you need more time to gather that data. But it's it's possible, but that is the offline world. Right? Yeah. Right. I think we could talk marketing attribution all day. Alex, Marshall, whatever your name is, do you wanna give us some your top tips for anyone listening? Where do you think people should start? What are your top three tops after today's call? I think that the key thing is just making sure you, a, have a clear understanding on what you're spending and where you're spending. And you need to be really clear on what the outcome is you're looking for. Right? It should always start with what is the outcome I'm looking to drive and work your way back from that. What's the easiest way of you doing that. And if it, if it is by doing SMS, if it is by doing direct mail, great. But again, you need to have attribution models in some way in place. So I think QR codes have been manual element, knowing to type in the forward slash and that kind of thing. So it's great on the manual element, and to type in the forward slash and that kind of thing. So it's great on the marketers. It's great for the customers. They could just, you know, photo something, and it'll come straight up onto the right thing. So, yeah, I think knowing where you knowing what the outcome is you're looking for, knowing what you're spending, knowing what you're doing, and then having a system in place to be able to track those those pieces. So whether that is Google Analytics, I know that might be a cuss word on this, but any kind of analytics platform is gonna be able to deliver what the outcome is that you're looking for. You know, if you're looking to try and understand calls, call tracking platform. If you're looking to try and understand the online completions, it's the online piece. But also as well, the key thing I think that it's just a lingering thought just to bear in mind for future is that things like programmatic, things like the really top of funnel stuff, that's always been a really historic problem in terms of being able to attribute what what is that actually playing as a role further down that funnel. And I think I don't you shouldn't you shouldn't discount programmatic because it plays a crucial role in that brand awareness piece, I think. And I think actually sync things like TikTok, I think is becoming the new programmatic platform for, for businesses. I think that's going to be the first touch of an intro to a, to a consumer. And because the way that their data is framed, you're going to be able to go down to a demographic level to their interests, all those kinds of things there. And you'd be able to target those people based on the type of people that you're looking to try and work with. So I think understanding where your customers are, linking that attribution there, and then making sure that you've got the tools and the analytics in place to be able to track it in the right way. And then back to Alex's point, have a have a a a system in place to at least test it and improve it. You know? Whether that's just changing one thing on that every month or whether that's the way you said about Erica, just AB split testing or doing variations and just seeing the outcomes of that, having something in place to be able to improve it. So I think without without the you can't if you can't measure it, you can't manage it. I think that's the final quote I'll probably leave on. I like that. That's a that's a good one to end with. Fantastic. And as, you know, as per the theme of, our podcast, before you do anything else, make sure whatever channels you're using, you know what your customer wants. Because it's no good your target customer is, not gonna pick up the phone like me. And then you try and make them phone because, say, that's never gonna happen. Because giraffes don't eat steak. Oh, I love it. I hate steak. Awesome. So, Alex, if anyone wants to get in touch with you, if they just wanna talk marketing attribution or learn more about your awesome system, where can they find you? So I'm always on LinkedIn. I'm LinkedIn. So it's Alex Shrimpton, s h r I m p t o n. Email is alex.shrimpton@infinity.co, and I'm also on TikTok, infinity_ shrimp. Awesome. Okay. Alex, b, anything you wanna add before we wrap up? No. I think, I agree every agree with everything that mister Alex, mister Shrimpton, mister Marshall, all of the above above just left us with. That was perfect. Thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it. Thank you for having me, guys. Awesome, guys. Have a good day. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye. That wraps up this episode of giraffes don't eat steak. Thanks for joining us. I hope you found value in our discussion and got some new ideas to apply to your own business. Tune in next week for another round of marketing insights and inspiration. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We appreciate you listening. Catch you next time on giraffes don't eat steak.